Episode 37

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Published on:

1st Jan 2026

Inside the Crisis Facing America’s Police Leadership: Steven Sund Breaks It Down (Part 2)

On January 6, 2021, the failure wasn’t a lack of warning.

It wasn’t a lack of experience.

It was a failure of permission.

In this episode of Heroes Behind the Badge, former U.S. Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund takes listeners inside the command center as the attack on the Capitol unfolded—minute by minute, decision by decision.

Chief Sund explains what he saw in real time, why requests for reinforcements were delayed, and how structural and legal constraints prevented immediate action while officers were being overrun. He walks through what has since changed, what has not, and where accountability still remains unclear.

The conversation also examines the aftermath: political fallout, scapegoating, nondisclosure agreements, unanswered questions about intelligence and response, and the personal cost of being reduced to a single day in history.

This is not a partisan argument or a retrospective built on hindsight. It is a sober, first-hand account of leadership under constraint—and a candid discussion about what happens when responsibility is assigned without authority.

By the end of this episode, the listener is left with a clearer understanding of how fragile public safety becomes when systems fail, and what leaders must do to protect both their people and the truth when the pressure is highest.

Learn more or get involved:

  • https://citizensbehindthebadge.org
  • Listen to more episodes of Heroes Behind the Badge.

Like, Subscribe, and Share to support the men and women who serve behind the badge.

Show Notes Disclaimer

This episode reflects the first-hand experience, perspective, and professional judgment of former U.S. Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund, as shared during this recorded conversation.

Where topics involve ongoing debate, unresolved investigations, or contested interpretations, the discussion distinguishes between what is personally observed, what is documented, and what remains unanswered. This episode is not intended to serve as a comprehensive investigative record, nor does it assert conclusions beyond the speaker’s direct knowledge and publicly available information at the time of recording.

The views expressed are those of the participants and are presented in the interest of understanding leadership, accountability, and decision-making under extreme institutional constraint.

Transcript
VO:

On January 6th, failure wasn't a lack of warning.

VO:

It wasn't a lack of experience, it was a failure of permission.

VO:

In this episode, former US Capitol Police Chief Steve Sund walks us

VO:

back into the command center and into the decisions that still shape

VO:

what we understand about that day.

Craig Floyd:

Hey, Steve.

Craig Floyd:

we're doing this interview right around the five year

Craig Floyd:

anniversary of January 6th, 2021.

Craig Floyd:

The riot at the Capitol, you were Chief of Police on that day, and

Craig Floyd:

you've written a book, and I, want our audience to understand that this

Craig Floyd:

is the definitive, piece of work.

Craig Floyd:

If you wanna know what really happened on January 6th, what

Craig Floyd:

led up to it, the aftermath.

Craig Floyd:

all the good things that happened that day, the heroism of, the Capitol police

Craig Floyd:

and other jurisdictions, and how they were able to protect the Capitol and

Craig Floyd:

prevent, any member of Congress or staff from being, injured or killed

Craig Floyd:

and, I wanna get that out there.

Craig Floyd:

First of all, because we're not gonna be able to cover

Craig Floyd:

all the details in this book.

Craig Floyd:

We've already interviewed you in a great three part series a year ago.

Craig Floyd:

About what happened on January 6th, and we talked about your book, but, in hindsight,

Craig Floyd:

okay, here we are five years later.

Craig Floyd:

I'd like you to just, reflect on January 6th, the lead up, the aftermath.

Craig Floyd:

What was your toughest challenge, the toughest moment

Craig Floyd:

that you faced on January 6th?

Craig Floyd:

And then we'll talk about, some of the mistakes that were made in some

Craig Floyd:

of the, lessons that we've learned.

Steven Sund:

I can tell you a absolutely as soon as you start saying it,

Steven Sund:

because it was the time I felt like I had a shockwave go through my body.

Steven Sund:

I'm sitting in a chair at the command center.

Steven Sund:

I'm at the front of this, large command center.

Steven Sund:

We have video screens up on the front.

Steven Sund:

I'm at a U-shaped desk.

Steven Sund:

I'm watching all the video screens, at, the front.

Steven Sund:

It's probably about 12:53.

Steven Sund:

The riot began and I saw my officers quickly being

Steven Sund:

overpowered, picked up the phone.

Steven Sund:

called, you know what?

Steven Sund:

Luckily, first call was the MPD and they sent me some assistance right away.

Steven Sund:

But by law, I have to get permission to bring in federal resources and

Steven Sund:

resources for my men and women.

Steven Sund:

So I called the Capitol Police Board, which I'm still by law, even in

Steven Sund:

emergency, I have to get, permission, called speaker Pelosi, Sergeant At Arms.

Steven Sund:

He, and he had permit.

Steven Sund:

He had the ability to gimme permission, but he wouldn't.

Steven Sund:

He wanted to run it up the chain.

Steven Sund:

I couldn't believe it.

Steven Sund:

I've got liaisons from the Capitol Police Board sitting right behind me

Steven Sund:

watching the same thing I'm watching.

Steven Sund:

I can't get permission to bring in any, federal resources from my

Steven Sund:

officers watching them being, beaten, struck, protestors, running past them.

Steven Sund:

I called the Senate Sergeant At Arms and I get denied again repeatedly.

Steven Sund:

House Sergeant At Arms, I keep calling 'cause the House Sergeant At Arms pretty

Steven Sund:

much driving the train on this one.

Steven Sund:

I was just in shock that I can't get permission to bring

Steven Sund:

in resources, for my offices.

Steven Sund:

That's the thing that kind of shocked me the most, that you know here, my

Steven Sund:

officers are battling, I'm having to watch them battle, and here I'm stuck

Steven Sund:

because of a policy and bureaucracy.

Steven Sund:

to say I can't bring in federal resources.

Steven Sund:

I didn't.

Steven Sund:

I, I didn't sit back, for that 71 minutes and do nothing.

Steven Sund:

That's when I started calling every chief of police.

Steven Sund:

I knew, relying on relationships and brought in those resources

Steven Sund:

even though I hadn't been given permission at that point.

Steven Sund:

so I was just, that's the thing that just shocks me the most.

Steven Sund:

The fact that it wasn't an instantaneous absolutely whatever

Steven Sund:

you need, chief, bring them in.

Steven Sund:

it was delayed for over an hour.

Craig Floyd:

In your mind, if we had the National Guard, resources

Craig Floyd:

that you had wanted to, prepare and, have, surrounding the Capitol

Craig Floyd:

that day, is it fair to say that we would've prevented what we saw on tv?

Craig Floyd:

Would we have prevented people from, breaching the, US Capitol?

Steven Sund:

So there, there's two aspects to that.

Steven Sund:

Yes, yes.

Steven Sund:

and it's just not my opinion.

Steven Sund:

Congress has actually come out now in a report and said, if the House and Senate

Steven Sund:

Sergeant At Arms had approved Chief Son's request on January 3rd, chances are the

Steven Sund:

Capitol would've never been breached.

Steven Sund:

And I absolutely believe that I've worked with, national Guard troops.

Steven Sund:

For decades, I've sworn in thousand National Gaurd troops.

Steven Sund:

They would've come out, they would've done an assessment through the DSCA program.

Steven Sund:

Defense support for civil authorities, analyzed the size of our perimeter, and

Steven Sund:

all I wanted them was to unarmed National Guard to help support my perimeter.

Steven Sund:

I had a large perimeter that four foot bike rack.

Steven Sund:

Only had 273 officers for the perimeter.

Steven Sund:

And you gotta understand those officers aren't just for the

Steven Sund:

perimeter, therefore response, they're CDU response, they're a response.

Steven Sund:

They're some of the P officers I lost when we got the pipe bombs that came in.

Steven Sund:

And I just wanted them to augment my officers so people wouldn't be inclined to

Steven Sund:

jump over the fence and couldn't get that.

Steven Sund:

So Congress has already come out and said, chances are we, they would've,

Steven Sund:

the capital would've never been breached if they had approved on the third.

Steven Sund:

And then if you look at January 6th, the head of the D.C. National

Steven Sund:

Guard General William Walker at the time actually testified and said

Steven Sund:

he had almost 200 National Guard within eyesight of the Capitol.

Steven Sund:

If I had gotten immediate approval to bring them in chance R, they could have

Steven Sund:

been on site very quickly, and he thinks they actually could have prevented

Steven Sund:

it even once the, riot had started.

Bill Erfurth:

While we're on this topic, I just wanna, throw a few more

Bill Erfurth:

things out, especially for people that haven't watched, any of our poD.C.asts

Bill Erfurth:

before, perhaps know your background.

Bill Erfurth:

But, you had mentioned that right now you'd mentioned that even

Bill Erfurth:

as early as January 3rd, that.

Bill Erfurth:

The National Guard was requested.

Bill Erfurth:

I think there's been numerous other people, that have come forward now

Bill Erfurth:

that were privy to those discussions with not only the Department of

Bill Erfurth:

Defense, but the White House and everybody that said, yeah, Trump even

Bill Erfurth:

said, send National Guard ultimately.

Bill Erfurth:

And you, I want to go back to what you were just saying

Bill Erfurth:

about the Sergeant of Arms.

Bill Erfurth:

You were the scapegoat.

Bill Erfurth:

You were fired the next day after January 6th by Nancy Pelosi

Bill Erfurth:

because it was a political thing.

Bill Erfurth:

Clearly, Sergeant of Arms works for Nancy Pelosi.

Bill Erfurth:

They ultimately were the ones along with, it's my understanding,

Bill Erfurth:

Mario Bowser, the mayor.

Bill Erfurth:

Of D.C. that all didn't want the National Guard for whatever reason.

Bill Erfurth:

But here's what I wanna ask.

Bill Erfurth:

So there's been reporting, and I just want to know if you know anything about

Bill Erfurth:

this or if it's true, when the Sergeant of Arms left whenever that was, it's

Bill Erfurth:

been reported that he had to sign A-M-D-A-A non-disclosure agreement,

Bill Erfurth:

which I've never heard of before.

Bill Erfurth:

What do you know about that?

Steven Sund:

So as far as, so you have two Sarge Arms.

Steven Sund:

You have Mike Stinger, and you have Paul Irving.

Steven Sund:

I, you, I suspect you're probably talking about Paul Irving, or, maybe

Steven Sund:

you're talking about both of 'em.

Steven Sund:

don't know under what circumstances, they left.

Steven Sund:

But IWI will tell you this, what's, what I find interesting is when I left, again, I

Steven Sund:

was stripped out within 24 hours and then.

Steven Sund:

Removed from my office that Friday, I got a call and said, you're

Steven Sund:

immediately out of your office and disconnected from everything.

Steven Sund:

you gotta wonder why did that happen so fast?

Steven Sund:

That's a whole nother story.

Steven Sund:

but for me, no, NDA, they never approached me about an NDA.

Steven Sund:

But what's interesting is several officials after me, that were,

Steven Sund:

discipline, some people that are whistleblowers, that they went after,

Steven Sund:

all within the, department board I understand we're, required to sign NDAs.

Bill Erfurth:

Who signs an NDA unless you got something to hide.

Steven Sund:

Of course, NA, right?

Steven Sund:

Unless you're, gonna go and sell corporate secrets or something like that.

Steven Sund:

Nothing I, I talk about is, is classified.

Steven Sund:

Nothing associated with this, was classified.

Bill Erfurth:

It's very, suspect, but, so you just made it clear

Bill Erfurth:

you did not have to sign an NDA.

Bill Erfurth:

No.

Bill Erfurth:

But what I remember in discussing with you before.

Bill Erfurth:

You had some issues with people, even threats, trying to dissuade

Bill Erfurth:

you from writing your book.

Steven Sund:

Oh, let's see.

Steven Sund:

again, had a number of people that were, that were, concerned

Steven Sund:

about your writing book.

Steven Sund:

I'll take the January 6th Select committee.

Steven Sund:

'cause that was right, when, we were having negotiations with them, again, they

Steven Sund:

never wanted me to just testify in public.

Steven Sund:

I would've been happy to testify in public.

Steven Sund:

and they kept pushing for behind the closed door.

Steven Sund:

I interview, which we, I ultimately did.

Steven Sund:

And they, I think were concerned.

Steven Sund:

I was writing a book so that, there's a little bit, Hey, are after writing

Steven Sund:

a book, and for me, it wasn't about writing a book, it was about doing an

Steven Sund:

after action report and making sure that somebody understands what exactly

Steven Sund:

what really happened based on the facts.

Steven Sund:

so yeah, that was, the, the pressure I'd gotten.

Steven Sund:

Not, I don't feel like I, I had gotten a whole lot of pressure

Steven Sund:

from up on the hill about it.

Steven Sund:

I stayed, I stayed very quiet.

Steven Sund:

about putting it together as I just collected information.

Steven Sund:

But, I will tell you this, I had whistleblowers from within my

Steven Sund:

own intelligence unit come out.

Steven Sund:

several of those ended up getting disciplined, which was sad.

Steven Sund:

Whistleblowers within the intelligence community itself, Department

Steven Sund:

of Defense whistleblowers come out, that helped support that.

Steven Sund:

Were very supportive of the, of the book and the number one support I get today.

Steven Sund:

which is interesting 'cause I still have a great relationship

Steven Sund:

with Capitol police officers, MPD officers, a lot of my brethren.

Steven Sund:

Of Capitol police officers continue to tell me just how happy they were that I

Steven Sund:

wrote the book and actually their story.

Steven Sund:

'cause, it's, their story too, is told in a, factual, unbiased, account.

Steven Sund:

I appreciate.

Bill Erfurth:

I remember Dennis telling us about reading the book when

Bill Erfurth:

he read the book and saying it was the most detailed factual account.

Bill Erfurth:

And, you had all of the references, the cross references,

Bill Erfurth:

the side notes and whatever.

Bill Erfurth:

Dennis, maybe you want to jump on that?

Dennis Collins:

Yeah, I I, do a lot of reading and I will tell you that probably

Dennis Collins:

is the most research, heavy, citation heavy book that I've read in a long time.

Dennis Collins:

He's got ex, dates and times, exact ti times and dates.

Dennis Collins:

You have messages, exact copies of messages, emails, et cetera.

Dennis Collins:

I was like, wow.

Dennis Collins:

That gave, that what, whatever level of credibility you had that just

Dennis Collins:

put it way, way up there for me.

Craig Floyd:

And the good thing about the book I found is that it was a page turner.

Craig Floyd:

you talk about all the detail and all the research that went into it,

Craig Floyd:

but you felt like you were there on January 6th living through the.

Craig Floyd:

The minute by minute, action, out on the grounds of the Capitol.

Craig Floyd:

What was happening behind the scenes in, your office, Steve?

Craig Floyd:

I found it fascinating and, again, I encourage, all our audience to, to go

Craig Floyd:

out and read it because we're, just gonna be able to touch the surface here today.

Craig Floyd:

One question I had, getting back to your earlier comment is, based

Craig Floyd:

on what you know today, have.

Craig Floyd:

Changes been made to allow for the chief of the Capitol police to have

Craig Floyd:

more control, more say over what resources he, he or she may need.

Craig Floyd:

I, if ever a crisis like this occurs again.

Steven Sund:

So the biggest problem I faced and looking back at, it

Steven Sund:

was the political influence that.

Steven Sund:

People have over the, chief of the Capitol Police, you have the Capitol Police Board.

Steven Sund:

They're all politically, appointed individuals.

Steven Sund:

they exert an extreme amount of pressure on the Chief, and that still exists.

Steven Sund:

and then you have four, congressional oversight committees

Steven Sund:

that are really staffed.

Steven Sund:

Even though you have members of Congress on each of the oversight

Steven Sund:

committees, really a lot of the political pressure comes from the

Steven Sund:

staffers, that gets pushed down.

Steven Sund:

And, sad to say that's the, that environment still exists.

Steven Sund:

The one thing that did change, and I have a lot of people, that will question, oh,

Steven Sund:

did did you have to keep going forward?

Steven Sund:

Permission?

Steven Sund:

Did you really have to get permission?

Steven Sund:

I if you doubt it, the one law that I referenced that to U.S.

Steven Sund:

Code § 1970, they changed.

Steven Sund:

They changed 11 months after January 6th.

Steven Sund:

In December, 2021, they did the, US Capitol Police Emergency

Steven Sund:

Authorization Act, I think is what they, did the amendment titled.

Steven Sund:

and now they grant the chief of police, when they deem, when he deems

Steven Sund:

necessary, he or she deems necessary to call in federal resources without

Steven Sund:

going through that bureaucratic mess.

Steven Sund:

So the one thing that changed was they changed 2 U.S. Code § 1970.

Steven Sund:

but besides that, the structure that I still think, adds to.

Steven Sund:

poor planning, poor, preparations.

Steven Sund:

whether or not your officers are gonna be in hard gear, whether or not you're

Steven Sund:

gonna put up fencing, all relates way too much, per, allows too much power from,

Steven Sund:

political influence to, to affect those decisions rather than looking and say,

Steven Sund:

Hey, we've got somebody that's a, 30 year.

Steven Sund:

Police veteran, let's listen to him.

Steven Sund:

If he sees, says his officers need to be in hard gear, put 'em in hard gear.

Steven Sund:

you need fencing, let's give 'em the fencing.

Steven Sund:

But now you just gotta go through all these rigmaroles and get approval.

Steven Sund:

Think about it.

Steven Sund:

We didn't have tasers up on Capitol Hill.

Steven Sund:

what an environment for less lethal.

Steven Sund:

That's an environment.

Steven Sund:

You need a number of different options.

Steven Sund:

But 'cause we deal with mental health concerns all the time.

Steven Sund:

It took months, it took years for me to get tasers, and I had to go

Steven Sund:

through these committees and keep defending myself why I wanted tasers.

Steven Sund:

That's a no brainer.

Steven Sund:

why would you not, why wouldn't you not want 'em immediately?

Steven Sund:

And, have to deal with staffers to get permission to bring in tasers.

Steven Sund:

That just makes no sense.

Bill Erfurth:

See, I think it's important here just to, make sure

Bill Erfurth:

that we say or, let you talk about the fact that since then, since this

Bill Erfurth:

whole incident, you've been exonerated.

Bill Erfurth:

life has changed quite a bit for you, but you've also been involved with Congress.

Bill Erfurth:

You've been speaking to some of the senators, the Congress people.

Bill Erfurth:

I don't, I can't recall the timeline.

Bill Erfurth:

Have you been on one of the committees in front of one of the committees or

Bill Erfurth:

about to be, maybe talk about that stuff.

Steven Sund:

Yeah, I stay, in, touch with many members of, of Congress.

Steven Sund:

Right now, the current January 6th committee is chaired by,

Steven Sund:

chairman Barry Loudermilk.

Steven Sund:

He's doing a really good job.

Steven Sund:

He chaired the, previous one, I, testified last time I testified in public.

Steven Sund:

Before them was September, I wanna say 23.

Steven Sund:

because of the shutdown, a lot of delays and getting the process back

Steven Sund:

up, they're now back up and running.

Steven Sund:

It's my understanding they're gonna have their first hearing

Steven Sund:

in the beginning of the year, possibly even on, on January 6th.

Steven Sund:

I've told 'em, they've asked, Hey, you may be one of our first, witnesses.

Steven Sund:

Okay?

Steven Sund:

I, you, they know they don't have to subpoena me.

Steven Sund:

I'll be there.

Steven Sund:

but I think right now they've, they, should be focused and they know my story.

Steven Sund:

they've, matter of fact, the chairman actually endorsed the book.

Steven Sund:

So he knows my story.

Steven Sund:

My story's not gonna change.

Steven Sund:

It hasn't changed in five years.

Steven Sund:

It's not gonna change now.

Steven Sund:

they need to bring in, some of the bigger fish they need to bring in some

Steven Sund:

of the people that may be, again, behind some of the cri critical decisions that

Steven Sund:

caused us to be ill prepared that day.

Bill Erfurth:

So let's talk about some of those things that happened in January 6th.

Bill Erfurth:

I, because we don't wanna harp on this continuously, but I want to

Bill Erfurth:

close the book on this, the good, the bad, the ugly, the indifference.

Bill Erfurth:

There's been a lot of video, there's been a lot of reporting, and I wanna see.

Bill Erfurth:

What light you perhaps could shed on some of these things.

Bill Erfurth:

So I'm gonna ask you three different things and we can go over them.

Bill Erfurth:

the first one we'll start out with is, it's been reported that the FBI had

Bill Erfurth:

numerous up to maybe a hundred or more 200 sources and informants that were in the

Bill Erfurth:

crowd that were used to incite the crowd.

Bill Erfurth:

Maybe even perhaps encourage them to come into the, or go into the Capitol building.

Bill Erfurth:

What do you know about that?

Steven Sund:

It, it's interesting you asked that question.

Steven Sund:

in a number of my interviews, I've often said I would've been, I

Steven Sund:

would've absolutely been surprised that there wasn't, if there was,

Steven Sund:

if they said there was never any undercover, agents in the, crowd or,

Steven Sund:

CHS as confidential human sources.

Steven Sund:

But CHS is aside special agents.

Steven Sund:

I would've been surprised, a big event taking place in Washington,

Steven Sund:

D.C. You've got plain clothes, people that work for Secret Service.

Steven Sund:

You've got plain clothes.

Steven Sund:

People that work for the FBI, you've got the Joint Terrorism Task Force.

Steven Sund:

You've got.

Steven Sund:

Plain clothes for Capitol Police.

Steven Sund:

You've got, The park police.

Steven Sund:

think about it.

Steven Sund:

to think.

Steven Sund:

There would've been no undercovers in the crowd that, that just

Steven Sund:

didn't, hold water for me.

Steven Sund:

But you're, what you're referring to is a report that recently came

Steven Sund:

out, 275, 273, under, plain clothes.

Steven Sund:

They referred to 'em as plain clothes, fed, FBI agents, that responded

Steven Sund:

to the Capitol on January 6th.

Steven Sund:

So let's look at that.

Steven Sund:

That's a report that came out.

Steven Sund:

I think it came out, which was denied by the way.

Bill Erfurth:

They denied that there was ever those people there.

Steven Sund:

What it goes back is Christopher Ray is down on the hill on

Steven Sund:

several occasions and he is testifying that he, he, can't account for any, he's

Steven Sund:

not sure if there was any in the crowd.

Steven Sund:

That right there, if you're the director of the FBI one or the director of the WFO,

Steven Sund:

or you go back down, who's running JTTF.

Steven Sund:

All you gotta do is ask who'd you have in the crowd who was out there.

Steven Sund:

that's something that would've been an easy, hold on, lemme pick up the phone

Steven Sund:

and find out for him to keep saying, and he went down there repeatedly

Steven Sund:

saying he can't answer that he doesn't know how many he was there that.

Steven Sund:

Yeah, that, that's just poor management if that's the case, but that just

Steven Sund:

doesn't, that doesn't make sense to me.

Steven Sund:

ultimately because of Congress kept pressing, pushing a report finally

Steven Sund:

came out from the, FBI talking about there's 273, FBI agents, plain

Steven Sund:

closed FBI agents that responded.

Steven Sund:

So I've read through that report a couple of times.

Steven Sund:

If you read through it, it actually talks about a couple of things.

Steven Sund:

One.

Steven Sund:

There's a response to the capital.

Steven Sund:

So ultimately, as those 71 minutes are tick ticking by, and I can't get

Steven Sund:

permission to bring in federal resource, like I said, I'm talking to every

Steven Sund:

chief.

Steven Sund:

Every person I know.

Steven Sund:

I'm talking to Secret Service.

Steven Sund:

I'm talking to Wada, I'm talking to Metropolitan Airport

Steven Sund:

Authority, Fairfax, you, name it.

Steven Sund:

Actually a mutual aid.

Steven Sund:

ultimately I talked to a guy by the name of Dave Bch, number two

Steven Sund:

over at, FBI at the time about, Hey, send me whatever you've got.

Steven Sund:

he was gonna send over some of his, what they call their SWAT team.

Steven Sund:

It's a, Not full-time.

Steven Sund:

It's, one day you're an agent at WFO doing financial crimes, but you've got

Steven Sund:

all this gear and you're trained to a SWAT level so you can form into a SWAT team.

Steven Sund:

So I contacted him, he was gonna send people over to lot 16,

Steven Sund:

we were gonna deploy him from lot 16 inside the building.

Steven Sund:

And at lot 16 I had somebody, keeping track of who we were getting over.

Steven Sund:

I've been involved in active shooters before.

Steven Sund:

I knew I wanted to keep track of my resources.

Steven Sund:

and from that I got an accounting of 55.

Steven Sund:

At the end of the night, 55 FBI agents came over to assist.

Steven Sund:

So we've got that, tranche.

Steven Sund:

Another one is when I went over to brief the Senate over on the Senate

Steven Sund:

division, the Senate side of the, Capitol, the, hostage rescue team was on site.

Steven Sund:

I'd been told that actually helicoptered in, fast roped into a

Steven Sund:

lot 16, but they were on site there.

Steven Sund:

I wasn't aware of that.

Steven Sund:

That wasn't part of my, accounting.

Steven Sund:

Their hostage rescue team.

Steven Sund:

I think it's right around 44 to 48 people maybe, actual operators,

Steven Sund:

not counting all their support.

Steven Sund:

okay, maybe there's another 40, 45, let's say.

Steven Sund:

So now we're up to about a hundred.

Steven Sund:

Then they talked about deploying, some FBI agents to the two pipe bombs.

Steven Sund:

We had the one at the RNC one at the DNC, and I know for a fact FBI was there.

Steven Sund:

They responded in plain clothes.

Steven Sund:

Five, maybe 10 per site.

Steven Sund:

That's maybe 120.

Steven Sund:

so we've got a big difference between the 120, 130 I might be

Steven Sund:

able to account for, and the two 70.

Steven Sund:

I have no idea, what the other ones were doing.

Steven Sund:

I think there needs to be a better accounting.

Steven Sund:

the only reporting I've heard of an undercover, law enforcement, officer

Steven Sund:

in the crowd encouraging people to go into the building was the committee.

Steven Sund:

Under Barry Loudermilk had a video of what they reported to be an MPD

Steven Sund:

officer, possibly, part of their intelligence division, encouraging

Steven Sund:

people, you gotta go in, you gotta move towards capital, you gotta go in.

Steven Sund:

So that's the one they have on video that I'm aware of.

Steven Sund:

but yeah, there's just a big discrepancy, 273 versus the numbers I have.

Steven Sund:

it'd just be nice to know exactly what everybody was doing.

Bill Erfurth:

So the two other parts of this to wrap up, there's

Bill Erfurth:

video out there, first of all, there's a lot of video, right?

Bill Erfurth:

But there's still video from the US Capitol building that hasn't been

Bill Erfurth:

released, which a lot of people are wondering why is that the case?

Bill Erfurth:

But the videos that I'm gonna ask you about, so there's this one

Bill Erfurth:

guy pretty, recognizable on TV with the horns and the crazy hat.

Bill Erfurth:

He was like the Grand Puba or something, the shaman, whatever he, was, and,

Bill Erfurth:

you see him and he goes into the.

Bill Erfurth:

To the, floor and tries to get up on the speaker's chair or whatever and it

Bill Erfurth:

looks like before and after that he's been, he's being essentially escorted or

Bill Erfurth:

given a tour by a Capitol police officer.

Bill Erfurth:

Tell us about that.

Steven Sund:

So my understanding of that, and I've had a chance to talk with,

Steven Sund:

some of the officers that were, on the scene, not specifically the officers

Steven Sund:

that were, escorting him, but some of the officers that were on the scene, and

Steven Sund:

the individual you're talking about is, Jacob Chansley, I believe is his name.

Steven Sund:

He's there, the officers are trying to clear what they call

Steven Sund:

the, this, the house chambers.

Steven Sund:

they've got people in there, they've gone in there, asked him several times to clear

Steven Sund:

out, and they see this guy that's wearing the horns and walk around and they, almost

Steven Sund:

think of him as a, in facto, leader.

Steven Sund:

They looked at him like, Hey, maybe he's, the, these groups will follow him.

Steven Sund:

And he kept saying, I'll help you get them out.

Steven Sund:

From what I understand.

Steven Sund:

I'll help you get them out.

Steven Sund:

Just get me in there and, I can help you get 'em out.

Steven Sund:

So you see the officers go around to a couple of the doors that are locked.

Steven Sund:

He finally finds the doors that are unlocked, escort 'em in.

Steven Sund:

And I believe he does actually help, to get some of those people out.

Steven Sund:

He prays for the officers, helps get some of 'em out.

Steven Sund:

So I think ultimately the officers are trying to find somebody that, the

Steven Sund:

people that were inside the chambers, the people that were unauthorized

Steven Sund:

to be in there would listen to when they weren't listening to the

Steven Sund:

police officers and actually vacate.

Steven Sund:

So I think that's the story behind that one.

Bill Erfurth:

The last one then is there's video of some Capitol police

Bill Erfurth:

officers in uniform actually holding the doors open and allowing people to enter.

Bill Erfurth:

How do you explain that?

Steven Sund:

Yeah, that, that'd be one I'd, I'd like to look at.

Steven Sund:

There are videos and I'll tell you, I've seen a couple of, different

Steven Sund:

videos where it looks like you're following some of the protesters.

Steven Sund:

You see some of the officers standing back.

Steven Sund:

They could be standing against the doors, and looking like

Steven Sund:

they're holding the doors open.

Steven Sund:

but there's a number of cases where the officers, and I've talked to some

Steven Sund:

of these officers, they said, Hey, chief, we are absolutely overwhelmed.

Steven Sund:

Over number outnumbered.

Steven Sund:

What were we supposed to do?

Steven Sund:

We're just sitting there, we, we couldn't form a line.

Steven Sund:

We couldn't, provide any, force to try force them out.

Steven Sund:

We just kinda stood back and hoping things would deescalate.

Steven Sund:

So I think you may have a couple of cases like that.

Steven Sund:

I, I've, heard stories where doors were left unlocked.

Steven Sund:

That's, terrible.

Steven Sund:

If that is the case, I know there's a video out where it

Steven Sund:

shows a. African American female officer out on the east front.

Steven Sund:

It looks like she's waving at people to come on in, come toward the building,

Steven Sund:

and then the camera turns and you see a large crowd of people walking toward her.

Steven Sund:

She was actually, waving at other police officers that couldn't hear us on the

Steven Sund:

radio or couldn't hear people saying we're falling back to the Capitol.

Steven Sund:

So she's waving at them.

Steven Sund:

so there's some, explanation for some of it, but if you've got somebody,

Steven Sund:

holding doors open for, protesters that you know that's something

Steven Sund:

that shouldn't have happened.

Craig Floyd:

Steve, it's been, a little over a year now, since our last interview.

Craig Floyd:

And, a couple big things have happened since then.

Craig Floyd:

I'm gonna ask you about both of them.

Craig Floyd:

First.

Craig Floyd:

very recently they arrested.

Craig Floyd:

The pipe bomber, you've alluded to it several times in your comments that,

Craig Floyd:

there were two pipe bombs that were found, one at the RNC, the Republican National

Craig Floyd:

Committee Building and the other at the Democrat National Committee, building.

Craig Floyd:

And nobody ever, the, bombs never.

Craig Floyd:

Were detonated, thank goodness nobody was hurt by them.

Craig Floyd:

But clearly they could have done a lot of damage.

Craig Floyd:

They could have caused death, and nobody ever found out

Craig Floyd:

who was responsible for that.

Craig Floyd:

there were a lot of theories.

Craig Floyd:

Now the pipe bomber has been arrested.

Craig Floyd:

What do you know about the suspect that was arrested, and why did it

Craig Floyd:

take five years for them to finally figure out what happened there?

Steven Sund:

That's, that, that's the big question for me.

Steven Sund:

I've always, I've, been pushing over and over and, to, for them to hopefully

Steven Sund:

find this, the pipe bomber or the pipe bombers or whoever's, behind it.

Steven Sund:

And knew that this would, eventually it's gonna lead to, some good,

Steven Sund:

hopefully puzzle pieces being put in place on this whole January 6th thing.

Steven Sund:

what I know of, Brian Cole, Jr. One interesting, individual.

Steven Sund:

I will say this, I've been in touch with the committees.

Steven Sund:

I've actually been down to talk to the committees back in, I wanna say

Steven Sund:

October, pushing for, re-announcement of the $500,000, reward, and that FBI

Steven Sund:

there, and looking at this from square one, I'm glad they've, solved it.

Steven Sund:

I would say a couple things.

Steven Sund:

One.

Steven Sund:

Handle this investigation methodically, not like they did before.

Steven Sund:

methodically, stay quiet if you have to on stuff as you're, see seeking prosecution.

Steven Sund:

I don't think Brian Cole, Jr. is gonna be the sole person, responsible.

Steven Sund:

You see him on the phone a couple of times talking to somebody while he's,

Steven Sund:

walking around planning these devices.

Steven Sund:

HIs mental acuity is I guess being as brought into question.

Steven Sund:

we'll see how that is.

Steven Sund:

But I'm glad they found somebody and I just hope they handled the

Steven Sund:

investigation appropriately, and we get, some more answers out of it as

Steven Sund:

far as why it took so long, to find out now that this was solved, all based on

Steven Sund:

evidence they already had, in place.

Steven Sund:

All of it's, the, phone records, the geolocating, that would've

Steven Sund:

led to the, car, the LPR.

Steven Sund:

This, it would've taken a good comp three, four weeks, maybe.

Steven Sund:

And, then if you gotta wait for returns from the phone companies, I'll, give 'em

Steven Sund:

a little bit more time, not 58 months.

Steven Sund:

I mean come on folks.

Steven Sund:

That just doesn't make any sense.

Steven Sund:

To find out that they were sitting on this evidence the entire time, and they

Steven Sund:

could have solved this a long time ago.

Steven Sund:

I find that very, concerning.

Bill Erfurth:

Isn't it interesting that with the new leadership, now

Bill Erfurth:

that it's at the FBI and the DOJ, lots of things are coming out.

Steven Sund:

Yep.

Steven Sund:

And I'm thinking I continue to pursue 'em.

Steven Sund:

Yes, sir.

Dennis Collins:

Do you have any, sense, any instinct, any cop instinct

Dennis Collins:

as to why those bombs were planted?

Steven Sund:

I've always, felt that, For me, the, timing was very, suspect.

Steven Sund:

the fact that they're identified just minutes before, we have the, breach

Steven Sund:

of the, west front, it couldn't have happened at a worse time.

Steven Sund:

So for me, I've always felt it was some type of diversionary tactic because

Steven Sund:

it pulled the limited resources I had away over to the RNC at a terrible

Steven Sund:

time and we had to evacuate part of the candid house office building.

Steven Sund:

so I've always felt.

Steven Sund:

it was a diversionary, tactic somehow associated with January 6th.

Steven Sund:

We'll see.

Steven Sund:

We'll see what comes out of that.

Steven Sund:

but the timing, I'm always suspicious about, the timing, that's,

Steven Sund:

that, that's my thought on it.

Steven Sund:

I'm just waiting for more to come out.

Craig Floyd:

I think most of the people listening, to this poD.C.ast

Craig Floyd:

probably didn't even know there were any pipe bombs maybe they heard

Craig Floyd:

about the pipe bomber being arrested and they learned about it that way.

Craig Floyd:

But with everything else going on January 6th, on the Capitol grounds, people trying

Craig Floyd:

to breach the capital, I think that's where all our attention was focused.

Craig Floyd:

Meanwhile, you and your officers have to deal with.

Craig Floyd:

Pipe bombs being left at buildings right along the, US Capitol campus.

Craig Floyd:

unbelievable what you had to deal with that day, my friend.

Craig Floyd:

But, the other issue that I wanted you to comment on, because we didn't get a chance

Craig Floyd:

to ask you about this, president Trump, one of his first acts, when he became

Craig Floyd:

president, was to issue pardons to most of the rioters on January 6th, many of 'em

Craig Floyd:

who had been imprisoned, since that time.

Craig Floyd:

I'm just curious, what, is your reaction to Pardoning rioters who

Craig Floyd:

were, combating your officers and trying to get into the US Capitol?

Steven Sund:

I'll tell you a couple of things.

Steven Sund:

One, he had always said he was gonna do it, when he was going through the, the

Steven Sund:

campaign and he was, out there, talking.

Steven Sund:

It was no secret he was gonna do it.

Steven Sund:

For me, being a rule of law type of guy, I, only wish that it probably a

Steven Sund:

better way of done it would've just gone through each, case individually.

Steven Sund:

You had a, I wanna say approximately 17, 1800 people that they went

Steven Sund:

through and they ended up, pardoning some of those people, were extremely

Steven Sund:

violent, and assaulted my officers, and deserved to do, some time.

Steven Sund:

And be held accountable.

Steven Sund:

And then you had other people that again, would just walk through and

Steven Sund:

were trespassing, and didn't deserve, the lengthy prison sentences that

Steven Sund:

they got and, solitary confinement and the treatment they received.

Steven Sund:

so I think, that he said he was gonna do it.

Steven Sund:

I'm not shocked that, he did it.

Steven Sund:

I just, think that there would better way to do it would've been on a

Steven Sund:

case by case basis, go through it.

Steven Sund:

Some people have said that would've taken a lot of time.

Steven Sund:

I used to run a crash review board.

Steven Sund:

We'd review, A couple hundred, crashes a month.

Steven Sund:

we could get through that with 12 people in a week or two.

Steven Sund:

And I think that just would've been a better way to do it.

Steven Sund:

But, I honestly do believe some of those people deserved, to be pardoned,

Steven Sund:

with the way they were treated.

Steven Sund:

and again, other people, deserve to be held accountable, for what they did.

Bill Erfurth:

I, we, it's very well stated there, there's people today

Bill Erfurth:

that are doing armed robberies that, are let out without bond, right?

Bill Erfurth:

And you've got people there that simply trespassed or disorderly conduct, and were

Bill Erfurth:

in solitary confinement or right confined.

Bill Erfurth:

I think the, good thing, at least for the people that deserved, some time

Bill Erfurth:

and that did assault your officers, at least they spent some day, some jail

Bill Erfurth:

time for sure before that happened.

Steven Sund:

Yeah, because, the, some of the injuries, I know a

Steven Sund:

Montgomery County officer that won't return, and we got a Capitol Police

Steven Sund:

officer and won't return to service.

Steven Sund:

It just, it wasn't necessary.

Steven Sund:

We didn't, but anyway, I don't know what the, those people that were involved in

Steven Sund:

that, what their, their motives were.

Steven Sund:

But, again, like you said, some people deserved it, some people didn't

Steven Sund:

deserve the, the extensive time.

Steven Sund:

And, I've been in policing in D.C. for 30 years.

Steven Sund:

I've never seen, jail sentences like that.

Steven Sund:

in my entire career.

Craig Floyd:

One of the problems though in this country is that we are not tough

Craig Floyd:

enough on those who do assault, police officers and, that's a, sin really.

Craig Floyd:

It's disgraceful that we don't support our officers, in, those situations.

Craig Floyd:

So clearly there is a a line, of distinction as you point out between some

Craig Floyd:

of the rioters who were not assaulting officers, but certainly others did,

Craig Floyd:

and, they deserve to be, to face the toughest penalties, I believe personally.

Craig Floyd:

Steve, I'm interested in this, you've been through a lot in your career, and then you

Craig Floyd:

had to face maybe your toughest challenge, of your career on January 6th, 2021.

Craig Floyd:

What advice would you give to, other chiefs who might face a similar crisis?

Craig Floyd:

Sometimes politically motivated, but any crisis along the lines

Craig Floyd:

of the, type of riot or situation that you had to deal with.

Steven Sund:

Wow.

Steven Sund:

That's interesting because I've been thinking a lot about what our

Steven Sund:

chiefs are going through right now.

Steven Sund:

Chiefs really need to focus on the reason they're there, to

Steven Sund:

provide, to protect the community.

Steven Sund:

take bad people off the streets, and look out for the men and women that

Steven Sund:

are doing an incredible job, out there.

Steven Sund:

Really focus on that and keep politics out of it.

Steven Sund:

And I'm gonna get to your question here in just a sec. big concern I have

Steven Sund:

right now is when you look at, what, how the, a whole hiring process for

Steven Sund:

chiefs right now, you get the city council or a mayor, they'll, they're

Steven Sund:

the ones hiring the, hiring firm.

Steven Sund:

So they set the standards, they set, why they wanna get the person in there and are

Steven Sund:

you hiring chiefs for the right reason?

Steven Sund:

You wanna make sure you get chiefs in there, like I said,

Steven Sund:

to, protect your community.

Steven Sund:

Take bad guys off and help, put 'em before the judicial system.

Steven Sund:

And make sure the men and women that are working for them are getting properly

Steven Sund:

trained, equipped, and put out there.

Steven Sund:

I would, I'd say any chief that's faced with a critical incident like this, be

Steven Sund:

very cautious of who's giving you advice.

Steven Sund:

Everyone's gonna give you advice based on what they're looking to get out of it.

Steven Sund:

That's something I look back on, different people that came to

Steven Sund:

me even, within my close circle.

Steven Sund:

That came to me with some advice and wondering why did they gimme the type

Steven Sund:

of advice that they gave me at the time.

Steven Sund:

Like I told people if I, if, I knew then what I know now,

Steven Sund:

I would've never resigned.

Steven Sund:

Just be prepared.

Steven Sund:

You never know.

Steven Sund:

It could be a traffic's not gotten bad.

Steven Sund:

It could be not even something your officers do.

Steven Sund:

It could be, something that, that comes up on social media, that had

Steven Sund:

nothing to do with an officer's action.

Steven Sund:

Next thing, your day's turned upside down and your whole career is online.

Steven Sund:

Just, be prepared.

Steven Sund:

Have a core group of people that you trust absolutely that you can go to.

Steven Sund:

You trust their opinion, and have 'em on speed dial, and be ready to talk to them.

Steven Sund:

But, just ultimately make sure that if you do, if the stuff hits the fan, sit

Steven Sund:

back, analyze it from a distance as best you can, take care of yourself 'cause

Steven Sund:

you're gonna go through some tough times and take really good notes, because

Steven Sund:

ultimately you, you are gonna look back.

Steven Sund:

It's gonna be crazy for a little while.

Steven Sund:

But then when you finally, start, being able to think a little

Steven Sund:

clearly, you are gonna wanna make sure that you did everything right.

Steven Sund:

and if you didn't but just make sure you're keeping really good notes, and be,

Bill Erfurth:

You know, Steve Sta Yeah.

Bill Erfurth:

Saying all this, I just wanna say, Nothing is more important than

Bill Erfurth:

leadership and a strong leader that's that has the backs of their people.

Bill Erfurth:

And unfortunately, the politics are so ingrained in all this

Bill Erfurth:

that's just not happening.

Bill Erfurth:

You're looking around the country at different incidents and that chiefs

Bill Erfurth:

are being hired because of their ethnicity, their sexuality, whether

Bill Erfurth:

they got a D or an R behind there.

Bill Erfurth:

Their name and, and they and the people that are the political.

Bill Erfurth:

Leaders want those people to be their lackies basically.

Bill Erfurth:

And somehow or another, we're gonna have to get around that.

Bill Erfurth:

We're talking about chiefs, and this is an interesting question and nobody

Bill Erfurth:

probably has more insight than you for all the years that you worked at Metro D.C.,

Bill Erfurth:

but the chief right now is stepping down from Metro D.C. and has been accused of

Bill Erfurth:

cooking the books and not reporting crime statistics fairly, basically covering them

Bill Erfurth:

up and that report just recently came out.

Bill Erfurth:

I wonder what you think about that.

Steven Sund:

So my, concern is, when you look at crime and the

Steven Sund:

statistics, it's way too subjective.

Steven Sund:

And I've talked to officials on the, on the department, some of

Steven Sund:

the officials that were testifying.

Steven Sund:

I've, talked to matter of fact, down on the hill, about this.

Steven Sund:

And when you look at it, The chief needs to realize, and whoever was pressuring

Steven Sund:

the chief, if someone was, but the chief needs to realize, their number one job

Steven Sund:

is to protect the community, to take bad people off the streets of the community.

Steven Sund:

If you've got a crime problem, you gotta face that crime problem because,

Steven Sund:

I hate to say it, by going through and there's a city council, leg had

Steven Sund:

passed legislation that allowed almost for an intermediate type of charge,

Steven Sund:

from what I understand, that someone could say, Hey, this person was, shot.

Steven Sund:

That's for, me, I look at it, that's A-D-W assault with a deadly weapon.

Steven Sund:

That's gonna be, a DW violent crime.

Steven Sund:

It's gonna go on your stats.

Steven Sund:

They could change it to a, unlawful endangerment charge.

Steven Sund:

What the hell is that?

Steven Sund:

So you're now going to have an unlawful endangerment charge.

Steven Sund:

So if you find a suspect, what do you charge him with A-D-W

Steven Sund:

or unlawful endangerment.

Steven Sund:

And is he gonna be taken off the streets?

Steven Sund:

'cause now he's not gonna be part of your part one offenses, things like that.

Steven Sund:

You're not doing your citizens the justice they deserve.

Steven Sund:

So by watering down charges and making your city look safer, and I don't think

Steven Sund:

this is just gonna be Washington D.C. I think you're gonna see this in other

Steven Sund:

areas because it's too subjective.

Steven Sund:

You're doing it, it's extreme disservice to your community.

Steven Sund:

You're allowing, criminals to walk free.

Steven Sund:

You're, allowing the community not to realize and just how unsafe it is.

Steven Sund:

And people have always said, crime's down 24% violent crime in

Steven Sund:

Washington D.C. It sure doesn't feel that way because they were right.

Steven Sund:

The perception was it was still a violent city.

Steven Sund:

And they're now finding out that if you look at the FBI part one offenses,

Steven Sund:

violent crime was actually up, what, 1.6%.

Steven Sund:

So the, their perception was right.

Steven Sund:

So regardless, people's perceptions, tells everything, by cooking, cooking

Steven Sund:

the books or whatever you wanna call it.

Steven Sund:

Pressuring, some of the, some of the officials and, again, when you have seven.

Steven Sund:

District commanders come down and seven district commanders

Steven Sund:

all testify to the same thing.

Steven Sund:

There's where there's smoke, there's fire.

Steven Sund:

So I, think there's something to it.

Steven Sund:

I'm thankful when I was at MPD and I was a, commander, I ran

Steven Sund:

their special operations division.

Steven Sund:

You notice they call down the seven patrol districts, not the commanders

Steven Sund:

special operation because that's just, we don't, keep crime stats.

Steven Sund:

We don't report crime stats because that's just not what we do.

Steven Sund:

And I'm just awfully glad right now that I was never in that position.

Dennis Collins:

Let me track that.

Dennis Collins:

My, lemme track back to the answer you gave to Craig.

Dennis Collins:

Steve, he asked you what advice would you give to chiefs, these days?

Dennis Collins:

And, the political situation is what it is.

Dennis Collins:

I don't know if we're gonna change that anytime soon.

Dennis Collins:

Unfortunately, it is what it is, but I got a high, I don't want

Dennis Collins:

this to get lost in what you said.

Dennis Collins:

You just gave a, about a, two minute course on leadership.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

I teach a lot of leaders in my private practice.

Dennis Collins:

I consult with a lot of businesses.

Dennis Collins:

I'm gonna take what you said, if you don't mind.

Dennis Collins:

Can I take that?

Dennis Collins:

Sure.

Dennis Collins:

Absolutely.

Dennis Collins:

have the core group around you that you trust?

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

Oh yeah.

Dennis Collins:

Who do you trust?

Dennis Collins:

And that's a damn that sounds like an easy question, doesn't it?

Dennis Collins:

That's not an easy question.

Dennis Collins:

Who do you trust?

Dennis Collins:

No, it's not.

Dennis Collins:

And analyze the situation.

Dennis Collins:

Sit back.

Dennis Collins:

most of the people that I work with, they're not in life or death situations.

Dennis Collins:

Nobody's gonna die.

Dennis Collins:

But the business may be in jeopardy, jobs could be in jeopardy.

Dennis Collins:

So there's some, consequences.

Dennis Collins:

But if you, as a police chief can pull back, sit back and say, okay,

Dennis Collins:

what the hell's going on here?

Dennis Collins:

Can't a business owner do the same thing instead of just reacting?

Dennis Collins:

And how many of them just react?

Dennis Collins:

I like the idea about notes, and your book, which we've

Dennis Collins:

referenced several times.

Dennis Collins:

Your book is an absolute tribute to the notes that you

Dennis Collins:

took because it's all there.

Dennis Collins:

What is wrong with some of our business owners?

Dennis Collins:

They're not taking notes.

Dennis Collins:

They're not making records.

Dennis Collins:

I always had a saying when I was running businesses, if it isn't

Dennis Collins:

in writing, it didn't happen.

Dennis Collins:

It didn't happen, so I just wanna highlight that because, that

Dennis Collins:

was a mini course in leadership and wow, lesson learned.

Dennis Collins:

You ought to be out there on the stump speaking to leaders.

Dennis Collins:

That's, we gotta put you out.

Craig Floyd:

Dennis, the other thing that I took away, from what he said was, and

Craig Floyd:

this is particularly true, I think, in public safety and law enforcement, when

Craig Floyd:

you have to deal with a crisis that, overwhelms your officers, your department,

Craig Floyd:

you have to have relationships with you.

Craig Floyd:

Or neighbors, other colleagues and other jurisdictions nearby

Craig Floyd:

so they can come to help you, and come to rescue you if needed.

Craig Floyd:

And thankfully Steve had, as you said at the introduction, 30 years of law

Craig Floyd:

enforcement experience, he had built.

Craig Floyd:

All these contacts and relationships, and he was able to rely on them

Craig Floyd:

when he needed them the most.

Craig Floyd:

I know that's ultimately in our last interview, what you deemed to be the,

Craig Floyd:

the answer to, the crisis was you were able to get help from your friends at

Craig Floyd:

neighboring, law enforcement agencies, and they ultimately saved the day since

Craig Floyd:

you weren't able to get the National Guard that you wanted in the first place.

Craig Floyd:

Steve, I, wanna maybe draw some conclusion here.

Craig Floyd:

But I don't want it to end without you talking about the impact this,

Craig Floyd:

January 6th episode the aftermath has had on you personally, on

Craig Floyd:

your family, on your career.

Craig Floyd:

we all agree that you were, the scapegoat, you were basically

Craig Floyd:

dismissed the day after January 6th.

Craig Floyd:

You didn't have a chance to do a, debrief, to, get to the bottom

Craig Floyd:

of what happened, what could we have done differently, et cetera.

Craig Floyd:

You were let go.

Craig Floyd:

And it hurt you personally in, in a big way.

Craig Floyd:

I know you're a great man.

Craig Floyd:

You've handled it beautifully, very gracefully, courageously.

Craig Floyd:

But te tell our audience, what it was like to have to basically, be

Craig Floyd:

dismissed the day after all this happened and, you lost a pension that

Craig Floyd:

you were gonna soon be eligible for.

Craig Floyd:

Your reputation was tarnished, certainly by a lot of what was said in the media

Craig Floyd:

and a lot of the political, undoing, if you will, help us understand

Craig Floyd:

where you are today and, some of the injustice that was done to you and what

Craig Floyd:

we're trying to do to get it right.

Steven Sund:

Wow.

Steven Sund:

Wow.

Steven Sund:

Yeah, I look back on it.

Steven Sund:

There's, it, Lot, lot of impact.

Steven Sund:

It's interesting when I 12:53 when we get attacked on West Front

Steven Sund:

and I start making those calls and I'm not getting the support I

Steven Sund:

thought would be an easy support.

Steven Sund:

I, like I said, I felt a shock go through my body and only recently do

Steven Sund:

I feel that has really re reduced.

Steven Sund:

I used to almost think, Hey, it's almost gone.

Steven Sund:

we start talking about it now and I can, I, can feel it start rising back up.

Steven Sund:

Just anxiety and stuff like that associated with it.

Steven Sund:

So it's there, but yeah.

Steven Sund:

When you think about your family, you think about your wife, I would,

Steven Sund:

that'd be another thing I'd say, whether it's a business leader,

Steven Sund:

whether it's a chief of police.

Steven Sund:

Do not underestimate the impact your job is gonna have on your, family.

Steven Sund:

Please do not underestimate that for a minute.

Steven Sund:

It, it had an individual impact on all my kids.

Steven Sund:

I had, two kids that were, under under the age of 18 at the time, one daughter

Steven Sund:

that, was, right around that age, that it impacted all of them differently.

Steven Sund:

And I've had a chance to talk to them.

Steven Sund:

And I talked a little bit about it in the book, with it,

Steven Sund:

but don't underestimate that.

Steven Sund:

For me, again, that a lot of communications.

Steven Sund:

Thank God I'm a, big family man.

Steven Sund:

I'm a, man of faith, that have helped me through it.

Steven Sund:

for me, you talked about, getting stripped out the very next day.

Steven Sund:

I, that was what it was so perplexing to me.

Steven Sund:

Why so quickly, why the quick hatchet job, not involved in any after action,

Steven Sund:

not involved in any of the use of force, anything like that, and, pulled

Steven Sund:

away and literally just cut off.

Steven Sund:

I, I'm very thankful.

Steven Sund:

I've got a core group of officers that reached out to me regularly,

Steven Sund:

that helped me out a lot.

Steven Sund:

But, just be prepared for that.

Steven Sund:

exercising can help me through.

Steven Sund:

You talked about the, pension.

Steven Sund:

I'm still working to, try and get it back because, ultimately they, they came

Steven Sund:

back, the 17 law enforcement agencies.

Steven Sund:

I called in and again, I can't stress enough the importance of

Steven Sund:

those relationships 'cause my, law enforcement brethren we're asking,

Steven Sund:

do you have an emergency declaration?

Steven Sund:

It is just abiding by the law.

Steven Sund:

They were like, where do you need me?

Steven Sund:

How quick?

Steven Sund:

So when you, look at that, the very next day, I'm pulled out.

Steven Sund:

lose the, the retirement.

Steven Sund:

the 17 agencies I called in, end up getting awarded.

Steven Sund:

And here I am sitting, all alone at home and we're gonna try and

Steven Sund:

get that, that pension back.

Steven Sund:

So I've got a number of members of Congress.

Steven Sund:

I was just back on the hill, week before last, meeting with

Steven Sund:

another member of Congress, trying to get some more people behind.

Steven Sund:

You know them, coming back saying, Hey, I was the one guy that tried

Steven Sund:

to prevent January 6th in advance.

Steven Sund:

I was the one guy that tried to prevent it while we're under attack.

Steven Sund:

And I'm the one guy that actually was publicly held accountable

Steven Sund:

and stripped outta my position.

Steven Sund:

Something, I'd like to see some type of correction there.

Steven Sund:

we'll see.

Steven Sund:

I just, honestly, I think this is gonna take a little bit of, support from

Steven Sund:

the executive office of the president.

Steven Sund:

I know Speaker Johnson's office is aware of it and, don't seem to be

Steven Sund:

getting a whole lot of support there.

Steven Sund:

So, we'll see what goes.

Bill Erfurth:

I mean, Steve, ultimately don't you feel, and truly I think a lot

Bill Erfurth:

of people that pay attention and have half a brain realize it was just part of

Bill Erfurth:

the plan and you were collateral damage had nothing to do with you personally.

Steven Sund:

Yeah.

Steven Sund:

Yeah.

Steven Sund:

And again, I, one thing I'd also tell leaders never take anything personal.

Steven Sund:

I, try to take it personally.

Steven Sund:

It's interesting because, we now know and, the chief that took over

Steven Sund:

after me, Tom Manger, has actually come out and he testified that was

Steven Sund:

absolutely an intelligence failure.

Steven Sund:

Yet you're gonna take the assistant chief that ran intelligence and make her the

Steven Sund:

acting chief after you get rid of me.

Steven Sund:

You sit there and you wonder, why did it work out that way?

Steven Sund:

That just doesn't make any sense.

Bill Erfurth:

I'll say it because she was a DEI appointee.

Bill Erfurth:

Come on.

Bill Erfurth:

We all know this.

Steven Sund:

If you look at after action reports, what are

Steven Sund:

the, two things you always see?

Steven Sund:

You always see communications is an issue and intelligence.

Steven Sund:

If that's the case, bring somebody in from the outside, bring a former chief,

Steven Sund:

somebody like that, make them acting.

Steven Sund:

If that's the case, absolutely, but keep the other people there

Steven Sund:

so you can actually have access to 'em and do a proper investigation.

Steven Sund:

Don't try to elevate this person into a take a position.

Steven Sund:

Then when she doesn't get the position, you're gonna give her a

Steven Sund:

job somewhere out in California.

Steven Sund:

It just, it gets really suspect the way that kind of played out.

Dennis Collins:

Do you think?

Steven Sund:

But, again, you I, still think policing is a very

Steven Sund:

honorable and normal profession.

Steven Sund:

I'm thankful for groups like, like Craig and your team with Citizens

Steven Sund:

Behind the Badge, what you do.

Steven Sund:

They need as much support as possible, but we need, good

Steven Sund:

leadership in these positions.

Steven Sund:

Whether it's, the City Council, whether it's the Capitol Police Board, they

Steven Sund:

oversee them, give them a fair shake,

Steven Sund:

treat them appropriately.

Steven Sund:

And if something doesn't go right, investigate it a fact appropriately.

Steven Sund:

If people need to be held accountable, hold 'em accountable.

Steven Sund:

But do an appropriate investigation, and, correct the problem.

Steven Sund:

And, I still, to be honest with you, don't think that's ever occurred,

Steven Sund:

down on the Capitol for January 6th.

Bill Erfurth:

Steve, today, as we said, as we sit here and talk specifically,

Bill Erfurth:

are you happy Camper is life good?

Steven Sund:

So my son's asked me, wow, dad, you you, got a book out there.

Steven Sund:

I guess January 6th wasn't all that bad.

Steven Sund:

I would've, I would turn back the clock in a heartbeat, in an absolute heartbeat.

Steven Sund:

I'm, am I happy camper?

Steven Sund:

It's still, I think about it every day.

Steven Sund:

I really do.

Steven Sund:

I wish it, never occurred, which it never, was a part of my life.

Steven Sund:

But it, happened.

Steven Sund:

So we're gonna try and we're gonna, we're gonna move forward.

Steven Sund:

The things that are happen that are beginning to happen now are, big, change.

Steven Sund:

I'm working with some companies doing some stuff to really try and address

Steven Sund:

some of the biggest issues facing law enforcement and, in, our security right

Steven Sund:

now, which I, I, and joining, you talked about, Dennis, leadership, I get some

Steven Sund:

requests to go out and talk to people about leadership and I love that.

Steven Sund:

I love getting out and, talking to folks.

Steven Sund:

and whether it's about J-6 or it's about, special event management,

Steven Sund:

national special security events.

Steven Sund:

Things like that.

Steven Sund:

I like that.

Steven Sund:

So I like the change that is now, here we are five years later, beginning to happen.

Steven Sund:

And, I really enjoy that, that's, that, that's, that's where I'm

Steven Sund:

getting back into my stride.

Dennis Collins:

Good to hear you deserve that.

Dennis Collins:

You deserve that.

Dennis Collins:

You said, something that hit me again.

Dennis Collins:

don't take it personally.

Dennis Collins:

That's great advice.

Dennis Collins:

But it's real hard to do, isn't it?

Dennis Collins:

It's real hard to do because damn it is personal.

Dennis Collins:

It is personal and it's very hard to remove yourself

Dennis Collins:

sometimes from that situation.

Dennis Collins:

So I give you all the credit for being able to do that.

Dennis Collins:

You've had to do that.

Dennis Collins:

And I understand it's still with you, but somehow you have figured

Dennis Collins:

out a way to move without it.

Dennis Collins:

And I predict things are gonna get better and better for you as time goes on.

Dennis Collins:

So that, that's what I, feel.

Dennis Collins:

But I want, I wanna thank you again.

Dennis Collins:

We're gonna have to build you your own studio.

Dennis Collins:

You've become like a regular on this podcast.

Dennis Collins:

Come on Craig.

Dennis Collins:

Let's build Steve a studio.

Craig Floyd:

Yeah.

Craig Floyd:

for it.

Craig Floyd:

He's, my favorite guest.

Craig Floyd:

sure.

Craig Floyd:

You, he does it so well.

Dennis Collins:

What can I say other than thank you for sharing at the

Dennis Collins:

very level of your heart and soul.

Dennis Collins:

You, we asked some tough questions and you gave us some real authentic

Dennis Collins:

answers and that's what our audience on this podcast likes.

Dennis Collins:

They liked the truth and we promise to bring them the truth.

Steven Sund:

I've always told people, I'll answer the

Steven Sund:

question as best I can if I can.

Steven Sund:

I'm gonna tell you why I can't.

Steven Sund:

I don't have the knowledge.

Steven Sund:

I'll be, honest about it.

Dennis Collins:

I don't think there's ever a question we've asked you in

Dennis Collins:

the hours that we've spent with you that you haven't tackled and given.

Dennis Collins:

Again, the best answer you can give, and that's all we can ask.

Dennis Collins:

That's all you can do.

Dennis Collins:

So, I want to thank you on behalf of, Billy and Craig and Citizens Behind

Dennis Collins:

the Badge, thanks for joining us again.

Dennis Collins:

This is always informative.

Dennis Collins:

We always get behind the scenes when we talk to Steve Sund.

Dennis Collins:

We don't just get the surface right, we get behind the scenes,

Dennis Collins:

especially when er starts asking all those hard questions, man, I'm

Dennis Collins:

glad he is not asking me questions.

Dennis Collins:

I'd be afraid.

Steven Sund:

Again.

Steven Sund:

I, appreciate it and I appreciate all the, the support and, the work.

Steven Sund:

you guys do, honestly.

Steven Sund:

The, men and women that are out there patrolling every day, and, Craig,

Steven Sund:

I know you're just down with the National Transportation Highway Safety

Steven Sund:

Administration talking about the threats to our officers just when they're

Steven Sund:

patrolling, the number of officers that are involved in, in, in accidents out on

Steven Sund:

the highways and things like that, and the number of deaths that's, I was, wow.

Steven Sund:

I was blown away with the number of deaths we had.

Steven Sund:

You know it, great profession.

Steven Sund:

We just need more people like what you guys do.

Steven Sund:

Awesome.

Dennis Collins:

We appreciate that and I wanna remind our viewers and our

Dennis Collins:

listeners, heroes Behind The Badge is a Frequently Heard podcast and it's

Dennis Collins:

sponsored by Citizens Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins:

Craig Floyd is our founder, CEO and Chairman Bill Erfurth

Dennis Collins:

and I are founding directors.

Dennis Collins:

You can go to Citizens Behind the badge dot O-R-G and you can find out all there

Dennis Collins:

is to know about Citizens Behind the Badge as Chief Sund just said, join us.

Dennis Collins:

Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people are joining us every

Dennis Collins:

month to support the men and women of law enforcement.

Dennis Collins:

Citizens Behind the Badge is the leaning voice of the American people in support

Dennis Collins:

of the men and women of law enforcement.

Dennis Collins:

And you can get involved at the click of a button, Citizens

Dennis Collins:

Behind the badge dot O-R-G.

Dennis Collins:

Subscribe, follow, like all of the above.

Dennis Collins:

And by the way, when you do that, you become an insider.

Dennis Collins:

Not only do you get to see how to support police, but you get an instant

Dennis Collins:

notification when we drop a new episode, and that's often, and I guarantee

Dennis Collins:

you we're gonna have more and more like Steve, if you like what Steve

Dennis Collins:

Sund had to say today, subscribe.

Dennis Collins:

Follow.

Dennis Collins:

Okay, that's all for this edition up.

Dennis Collins:

Heroes Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins:

We'll see you next time.

Dennis Collins:

Thank you.

Steven Sund:

Thank you.

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About the Podcast

Heroes Behind the Badge
We tell REAL stories about REAL cops.  And we expose the fake news about police and give you the REAL truth.
From the front lines to the final call, Heroes Behind the Badge brings you the untold stories of America's law enforcement community. Led by Craig Floyd, who spent 34 years working alongside police officers across the nation, alongside veteran facilitator Dennis Collins and law enforcement expert Bill Erfurth, this podcast cuts through misconceptions to reveal the true nature of modern policing.

Our dynamic trio brings unique perspectives to each episode: Craig shares deep insights from his decades of experience and relationships within law enforcement, Dennis guides conversations with meticulous research and natural flow, and Bill adds engaging commentary that makes complex law enforcement topics accessible to all listeners.

Each episode features in-depth conversations with law enforcement professionals, sharing their firsthand experiences, challenges, and triumphs. Drawing from extensive research and real-world experience, we explore the realities faced by the over 800,000 officers who serve and protect our communities every day.

From dramatic accounts of crisis response to quiet moments of everyday heroism, our show illuminates the human stories behind the badge. We dive deep into the statistics, policies, and practices that shape modern law enforcement, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of what it truly means to serve in law enforcement today.

Whether you're a law enforcement professional, a concerned citizen, or someone seeking to understand the complexities of modern policing, Heroes Behind the Badge provides the context, insights, and authentic perspectives you won't find anywhere else. Join us weekly as we honor those who dedicate their lives to keeping our communities safe, one story at a time.

Presented by Citizens Behind the Badge, a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting and advocating for law enforcement professionals across the United States. Join over 126,000 Americans who have already signed our Declaration of Support for law enforcement at behindbadge.org.